Transcript
Aaron Reason:
Hey guys. Welcome back to another episode of A Reason to Live. Really excited about our guest today, Skip Ockoman. He shares his personal story with us, as well as Worldwide Peer Support and the first responders that he deals with in his recovery journey. So really hope you enjoy this episode. This is episode eight. Give it a listen and we’ll see you soon.
Speaker 2:
At the Indiana Community Addiction Network, we offer the new standard in medication-assisted treatment. So if you’re ready to put substance abuse behind you, we’re here to help. We are a local family-owned center who will create an individualized physician-led care plan to help you reach sobriety. At ICAN, we treat your addiction based on your unique needs, and have full addiction treatment programs. Get started on recovery today. Call ICAN now to speak to an advisor at 8-8-8-6-3-5-1-4-7-0. Or visit us at addictionsnetwork.com.
Aaron Reason:
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of A Reason to Live. I am your host, Aaron Reason, here with my producer, Michael Whitlock.
Michael Whitlock:
Hello, friends.
Aaron Reason:
And we’ve got a special guest today. Skip Ockoman is here to share his personal strength and experience and hope with us, and talk a little bit about Worldwide Peer Support. So we’ll get right into it, Skip. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Skip Ockoman:
Thanks, Aaron. I appreciate you both for letting me come on the show today. My name’s Skip Ockoman. I was a firefighter for 33 years. And I’m the youngest of four. Great family. I got on the fire department in 1988.
Michael Whitlock:
Thank you for your service.
Aaron Reason:
Yeah, thank you for your service. Absolutely.
Skip Ockoman:
Thank you. I’m an old guy. But when I got on the fire department, I was either going to go in the military or the Marines, because I knew I needed discipline, or go in the fire department. Well, my father was in the military. He was in World War II in Korea. And he said, “I don’t want you to go in there.” So he goes, “I want you to be a firefighter.” And my big brother was a firefighter, so I kind of followed his shoes when he was a firefighter. And I got on the fire department, “I’m going to be this hero and I’m going to save everybody.” All that. You know how we go through; “I’m going to have the big badge and stuff.” And I remember my first go-around, that’s two weeks, first go-around, I had stabbing, shootings, and little children dying. So for me, it was a shock to my system, because you hear about it, but you’re never prepared for it. It’s like you’ve got the book stuff and then you’ve got the real stuff.
Skip Ockoman:
So that was the start of my career on the fire department. And then the way I found my way out was drinking and taking drugs, and sex, and gambling. And all this stuff that I liked, I did it way too much. So that’s a little bit about my career on the fire department. I can’t blame my parents. I can’t blame anybody, because I had a good life. I had a good life, but I didn’t know how to handle those emotions back then, and-
Michael Whitlock:
Needed some distractions?
Skip Ockoman:
Yeah.
Michael Whitlock:
I bet. I can’t even imagine seeing those things.
Skip Ockoman:
Well, one thing I’d do, I was on the medic, medic one, I’d go home, I’d sit in my one-room apartment, and I had a Smith and Wesson .44 Magnum on my table. And I carried a bullet in there. And then I’d sit there and I’d burn my arms with cigarettes, I’d cut myself, I’d shoot up whatever I had, I’d drink whiskey, pass out, get up and do the same thing. I think back then I didn’t really want to die. I wanted the pain to go away. And the only concept I had was just killing myself. But I couldn’t get the state of hopelessness to pull that gun and put it up to my head. I’ve done it a few times, but then again, I’d get dressed, go back to work, put long-sleeved shirts on so they couldn’t see my track marks or the burn marks or the cut marks where I’d cut myself. And then I’d go back into it, helping people that are drug addicts and alcoholics, and then go. And I did that for a long time. I got on on August 6th, 1988, and March of 1989, I was in my first treatment center.
Aaron Reason:
Oh wow. So you went into treatment pretty quick then into your addiction.
Skip Ockoman:
Yeah. And they didn’t know what to do. I was one of the guys that they didn’t really know what to do with. So they came by my brother. He was on the police department. My two brothers finally were on the police department. And they came by where I was living at and they took a gun from me, because I was done. So they took a gun, and that’s where I went through my first treatment. I was in here at Anderson. It was a 30-day inpatient, South Anderson. I went through there, and I just did it because of the job. I wanted to keep the job, I wanted people to get off my back. And the only reason I said I was an alcoholic then is because everybody else was saying that, and they said they’d keep you longer if I didn’t get with the program.
Skip Ockoman:
So I put that mask on, the actor mask, and I did what they wanted me to do. And shortly after, I didn’t go to the meetings like they suggested, all the tools they gave me, I did what I wanted to do. I was 22 at the time. Those old guys didn’t know what they were talking about. Those 12-step meetings. And heck, it was like going into a fire. Back then, you could smoke at the meetings. You walk in, you’d have to drop to the floor to get to your chair.
Aaron Reason:
I remember that. I do. Yeah.
Skip Ockoman:
But I started off, and through the years I went to other treatment centers. And I was in and out of treatment for 11 years, seeing psychiatrists, being on medication. Never followed through with any that was suggested. And then the times going to treatment was getting closer and closer together. So I went in five years, went in three years, two years. So at the end of it, I didn’t know the last time I quit drinking and using was going to be my last time, because every time I went to treatment, or every time I did that, I thought, “When am I going to screw up again?”
Aaron Reason:
Right. Yeah.
Skip Ockoman:
I didn’t think I was going to succeed, because even my two brothers, they’re surprised that I’m alive today, because they didn’t think I’d make it out of my 30s. I remember when my one brother … I’m also married today. I’ve been married to a saint for 30 years.
Aaron Reason:
Oh, awesome. Nice.
Michael Whitlock:
That’s great.
Skip Ockoman:
She was a dispatcher, and I remember my one brother heard I was dating her, and he went up to her and says, “Stay away from him. He’s nothing but trouble.”
Aaron Reason:
Oh, man.
Skip Ockoman:
Of course, that made me the rebel she wanted to fix. So that worked to my benefit, man. Thanks, brother. But she stuck by my side through all this stuff. But they always told her to go to 12-step group for family members of alcoholics, and she said she didn’t need to do that. Of course, before me, she was married 12 years to an alcoholic, and then two months later she met me. Huh. There might be something there.
Aaron Reason:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, and I think with your story too, and we’ve talked about this, Michael, with other guests on the show, just how addiction really touches everybody. It doesn’t discriminate. It reaches such a vast variety of people. And like your story, you talk about it, it’s progressive, right? It doesn’t get any better. I didn’t see anybody coming into treatment on a winning streak.
Michael Whitlock:
Well, and I’m guessing in a situation like yours, you’ve got to not only address the addiction, but you’ve also got to address what you’re trying to fill that hole with. You’re trying to deal with some trauma of seeing some horrible things out in the world, right?
Skip Ockoman:
Sure.
Michael Whitlock:
And so that’s where, looking at addiction, you were trying to, I guess, escape. So now you’ve got to deal with your addiction and you have to deal with how to replace and deal with that trauma.
Skip Ockoman:
Yeah. And back then in treatment, they were just getting educated on PTSD. This is what they used to call it. Or PTSI or whatever, and the other things. They didn’t have EMDR or brain-spotting, or it wasn’t well known back then when I went through. So I’m just thinking, “I need to quit drinking or drugging.” And they’re giving me the best treatment they had at the time. And of course, I wasn’t following it. It could have been the very best, I wasn’t going to follow it. I was going to do what I wanted to do.
Skip Ockoman:
But for me, I didn’t know the last time I took a drink was February 7th of 2000. Last time I put a needle in my arm was November 18th of 1999. And I didn’t know any of that was going to be the last time I did those. But I never dealt with the mental health of PT … I went through the 12 steps in a great program, had a great sponsor, spiritual advisors. I had a group that I was around, because everybody told me what to do. They wouldn’t have programed suggestions for me, for the people I was around. They told me what to do, because I needed that direction. I needed them to say, “Hey, you go here, then go there.” Until about three to six months I was on there, and I called my sponsor up. I said, “Hey,” I asked him a question, and he goes, “I don’t know. What do you think?” I told him, I said, “Well, you told me not to think.” He goes, “Well, you’ve been through the steps, you’re doing this, now it’s time for you to think. If you don’t get drunk, don’t worry about it.”
Skip Ockoman:
And that’s what I did. And they guided me what to do. They went above and beyond what a sponsor is supposed to do in a 12-step program. They went above. We went camping together, we did things together, we went hunting together. They were there where my mom and dad … sorry.
Michael Whitlock:
You’re all right.
Skip Ockoman:
They were there for every part of my life. When my granddaughter died, every part of my life, they were there. And that’s the kind of people that raised me in a recovery program. I get emotional now just thinking it. Not that anything’s wrong, just I try to let those feelings go, because if I hold them in, I’m doomed to failure. I’ll repeat just what I did when I was out there drinking and drugging. So I’m just blessed to have people like yourselves and this facility, what you guys do here, and cooperating with the Worldwide Peer Support that I do now.
Aaron Reason:
Yeah. I can relate so much to what you’re talking about. My sponsor, he’s my best friend. His parents call me son. His dad actually calls me his favorite son now. But seriously, I needed that so much. I needed people to invest in me. And that’s how my recovery looks too. I’ve got this great group of people, this family that’s adopted me. I spend my holidays there. And just being embraced like that, and just loved. People that genuinely take an interest in you and just love you without reservations, without expectations. For me, I think that’s why I’ve been successful now, is because of that. And so I try to mimic that, because now that I sponsor guys, I try to do the same thing. I try to pour into people, just like I was poured into, to hopefully get those same results.
Aaron Reason:
So we’ll take a quick break and go to our sponsors and then we’ll get back in and talk about what Worldwide Peer Support is and go there. Okay?
Speaker 5:
Located in Anderson, Indiana, Bridges of Hope is a detox and residential treatment facility, assisting those experiencing alcohol and substance abuse addiction. Our treatment philosophy is based on a comprehensive and integrated approach to addressing all issues related to substance use disorders and co-occurring mental health issues. Addiction treatment at Bridges of Hope can guide you safely through withdrawal from drugs and alcohol and teach you important skills that help you achieve longterm recovery.
Speaker 5:
Client care is our highest priority, and we offer our clients all-inclusive treatment services. Our ultimate goal is to identify the challenges, concerns, and problems related to substance use and mental health disorders to provide professional clinical treatment to all of our patients. For more information on our services, visit us at bhoperehab.com, or call 8-4-4-4-4-9-6-3-9-2.
Aaron Reason:
Okay, Skip, so we’ve heard a little bit about your story. Tell us about Worldwide Peer Support and your role in that.
Skip Ockoman:
Well, Worldwide Peer Support, the concept started in 2018. I end up on the board for Indiana for American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and we were set up at FDIC. It was a two-week thing. I’d never been to this convention. All the firefighters said, “You need to go to FDIC every year.” I said, “I see a bunch of fire trucks. I can go out in the apparatus room and see a truck. I don’t want to go down there.” I didn’t know what it was.
Skip Ockoman:
Finally, when I got on this board, I was a representative for the first responders in Indiana. That’s what AFSP was using me for. I said, “Well, there’s a thing called FDIC. I’ve never been there, but it might be a good place to set up.” So we went in there and set up, and that weekend there was so much going on. All the volunteers were doing stuff at Indianapolis. So it was just me and somebody else that I brought with me. It was like Disney World to talk to me. And it wasn’t me, it was the topic we were talking about, suicide prevention. So I had so many firefighters, all over the United States and different countries coming up to me, and I would talk to them, tell my story.
Skip Ockoman:
And I had two pictures of firefighters that are on the table that were friends of mine. They killed their selves. I used to drink with them. Pete and Gary. And I’d tell their story. And I remember, Pete told me, he was going through some things, he was drinking, and I said, “Pete, just don’t do what Gary did.” Because a few months before that, Gary killed himself. And he goes, “Skip, I’ll never do that to my family.” And then, two months later, I got the call at two o’clock in the morning from a friend of mine that picked him up, a paramedic, that he killed himself.
Skip Ockoman:
So that’s why I’m passionate about a lot of stuff that I do. And we were there at Lucas Oil. We’re in there and we’re talking to all these people. Well, a gentleman from England that was set up over there walked over and talked to me. He says, “A friend of mine does something that you guys do. His name’s Pete Lewin. He does Pete Lewin Newfoundlands. They do emotional swim dogs. He works with the military and he’s a paramedic his self.” He connected me with them, and then I told Pete my concept, what I was thinking of.
Skip Ockoman:
Of course, at the time, that’s when I’m going through another dark space in my sobriety. And I was 17 or 18 years sober. And I wanted to leave something behind, because I found out something about my life that really took me down that dark place. So I wasn’t going to drink or drug, I didn’t want to do that. But the option of killing myself came back onto the plate. So in my insane thinking, even in sobriety, I was thinking, “Man, I could leave something here behind.”
Skip Ockoman:
So when I went and created this, we got the website, the domain name, and then I was going through my struggles, trying to put this thing together. And then I crumbled. And then I started cheating on my wife. And that wasn’t making me happy. Because I knew I wasn’t going to drink or drug, but I started cheating on her to go back to what worked before to fill that hole in my soul. Which didn’t fill it. I felt guilty, ashamed, and then that’s when I started planning to kill myself. I had the plan, knew what I was going to do. I just had to get in the right mindset, if that makes any crazy sense.
Michael Whitlock:
Yeah.
Skip Ockoman:
Finally, the guy that I appointed the peer support at our fire department saw some changes in me. Because we sent him through class. He’s been in the class that I sent him to. And he came up to me and he said, “Hey, are you okay?” And I said, “Yeah, I’m okay.” And he goes, “You’re isolating, man. You’re doing this.” He’s just naming all these things, because I’m doing everything I can not to show the signs. I even run a group for family members that had somebody kill their selves. I’m running a group trying to hold all this back.
Aaron Reason:
Oh, wow.
Skip Ockoman:
And then he came up to me, he says, “Skip, are you thinking about killing yourself?” I said, “I wouldn’t do that to my family.” The same conversation 20 years ago I had with Pete popped into my mind. And then I looked at him and I said, and I’ll be real direct, “I feel like pulling the trigger. I want to put a gun and just pull the trigger.” And I said some other words too. I said, “I don’t want to be here anymore. I’m tired.” I said, “I’m tired of falling down. I just don’t want to get back up.” And that’s when they started getting me help. And I started lowering my wall down. And all those runs, I was sober, but I never dealt with those children I did CPR on, or my granddaughter dying, or a young kid I sponsored years ago that two years later I was doing CPR on him and he died. And I can’t tell you how many people that I’ve been around that’s killed their self or been shot or stabbed. It’s like flashcards. When you go to sleep, you-
Michael Whitlock:
Got to take an emotional toll.
Skip Ockoman:
Yeah. And that’s why [inaudible 00:18:09] first responders. I don’t try to treat anybody special in recovery. But certain people, imagine the worst trauma, Aaron, you have in your life, one or two. Now take that every day, 10 times a day for 33 years.
Aaron Reason:
Yeah. I can’t imagine.
Skip Ockoman:
Or if you’re in the military, you’ve been to action, or whatever it is for you. That’s what I never dealt with. I worked the 12 steps, but I never dealt with that, because I thought I took care of it. But it came back. Ended up I went to treatment four years ago. I was there for 43 days, a treatment center in Maryland for firefighters. I ended up worked on PTSD. Worked on the PTSD, the traumas of my granddaughter dying, and the two little girls I found in a fire that were burned up, and some other stuff. But I met a lot of firefighters there. Told them my concept, Worldwide Peer Support, and they latched on.
Skip Ockoman:
And in me, it was a God thing. I used to be an atheist. Didn’t believe in God myself. And then I got God in my life today that I understand that put some broken people together to create the Worldwide Peer Support as it is today. We not only help firefighters, but police officers, military, and we’ve had some dispatchers that came through. We cooperate with this facility, we bring in groups and we do outings, and the guys are always pumped up about it. Especially, we went to a meeting last night for first responders, and they came up here like little kids and we had a great time.
Skip Ockoman:
And that’s what we try to do. It’s not that we know it all, but we know people who do know a lot better than we do. I tell people, I say, “I’m not too smart, but I know a lot of smart friends.” And we’ve got facilities around the United States that we work with to get people where they need to go. And all the facilities I talk to, the people I work with, they have the same heart. They go, “We just want to get them help. If they come to us, that’s great. But if they don’t, that’s okay too.” So it’s amazing to see these so-called competitors team up and work with each other. And that’s been a bright spot in my heart, because I get a lot of people that, “We can’t work with this guy. Can you get him in your place?” Or whatever. And that’s why we got our first guy from California. Flew in here about a year ago.
Michael Whitlock:
I remember. I remember him. And just to go on record, we value this partnership so much. See such a value, and see lives being changed for the better because of this relationship. Some people just need a little extra TLC, because they’ve seen some stuff. What do we consider a first responder, just for the record?
Skip Ockoman:
I tell you what, every firemen, police officers, military, and there’s some thing we use dispatchers too. And I don’t take away from anybody out there if you’re a first responder, whether it’s correctional. I know they have correctional people in there too at some of these facilities. But for me personally, it’s military, fire, police and dispatchers. I throw dispatchers in, my wife was a dispatcher. I’ve seen her at work and deal with some grouchy firemen and policemen and some bad calls. So that’s mine. But there’s a whole lot of people who will throw a lot of … I’ve seen treatment centers, they’ll treat a lot of people. And I don’t try to doubt any of the treatment centers. You look at the website of some of these facilities and they look really good. I’ve vetted some of these things, and it’s a little bit different story.
Skip Ockoman:
Here at this facility, I think you underestimate yourself, to be honest with you. It’s a family background and I think it’s a great place. Like I was saying earlier, I would not volunteer my time in coming in here if I didn’t believe in something.
Aaron Reason:
Absolutely.
Skip Ockoman:
And I believe in this place. It’s a big family.
Aaron Reason:
It really is.
Skip Ockoman:
I enjoy it.
Aaron Reason:
Yeah.
Michael Whitlock:
It definitely adds to our job satisfaction. What we do is tough, but there’s definitely some reward there. We get to see people’s lives changed. But the personal benefit is the connections we make, right?
Aaron Reason:
Absolutely.
Michael Whitlock:
I knew I liked you the first time I met you. You seemed genuine, and I knew your heart. And my personal story, I don’t have a personal story with addiction, but I mentioned in the first episode that maybe I would share a little bit about my background. I lost an uncle to suicide based on addiction, and so I know what that pain looks like from a family perspective and how important it is to save some lives. So I love what you’re doing, and if I can be a part of that or promote what you’re doing or whatever within my power, I’m here for it.
Skip Ockoman:
I appreciate that.
Aaron Reason:
And sometimes that’s just what people need to know. And I hope that’s what we get out in this podcast, and you have a podcast as well, just that there is help out there. I think from an addict’s perspective, you really feel trapped, and you don’t feel like there’s any help out there. I know for me, I used to say this all the time, and looking back at it now that I’m sober, it seemed kind of silly to me. But I was like, “You can never understand how bad of an addict I am. Nobody’s as bad as I am.” I always thought I was way worse than anybody. But you know what helped me in sobriety was I saw a guy that I knew was just as bad as me, and he was killing it in life. I actually ran into his mom at this function that we had that I had to volunteer for. When she told me what he was doing, she told me he was a Sunday school teacher at the church. And in my mind, I’m like, “Man, he’s got her fooled so good.” But it was all true, and it was legit, and I’ve watched his heart change. And he’s been a huge inspiration in my walk.
Aaron Reason:
And I’ve seen that happen with guys with you, Skip, when you come in here. Some of these guys are just shut off. And once they get around you and you start taking them to these meetings, you start seeing the change in them. And it doesn’t just stay with what you’re doing. They come back here and start participating more and doing things here. So yeah, we absolutely love what you do with these guys. It’s amazing.
Skip Ockoman:
Well, and both you know, for me it’s just sharing my brokenness. The success comes in with the therapist, the MDR that’s done here, the counseling. Because when Jason created something here, and we got with Jaren and them, I brought everything I did at that center of excellence, I brought everything in. Say it’s a fifth step. I didn’t hold nothing back. I gave her everything to work with so they can get an idea who I was and who first responders are. Even though I don’t like separating it. An alcoholic’s an alcoholic. My sponsor’s a bricklayer. But when you go through those traumas, you’ve got to deal with these traumas. And then once you get through that traumas, then they become, “Oh, we’re just like the person living under the bridge, or that kid that’s a heroin addict.” You’ve just got to get through that ego or that pain, whether it’s ego or pain or trauma.
Skip Ockoman:
And then you see a guy last night. He was a police officer at this meeting. Told the guys we had there, he said, “Hey, I want to let you guys know. We’re just alike. So don’t worry about it.” I said, “You share anything you want to here. You’re welcome here. We embrace you.”
Aaron Reason:
I love that.
Skip Ockoman:
The other guy, the retired firefighter, text me this morning, says, “Hey, give those guys my number. I want to talk to them. I want to help them if they need help.”
Aaron Reason:
That’s awesome, man.
Skip Ockoman:
So that’s what we do, not just as first responders. We do that as a brother and sisterhood in recovery. That’s what we need to do. I cannot be sober all by myself. I need a village.
Michael Whitlock:
Oh, people draw strength from other people’s success. It gives them hope that they too, one day, can achieve that. So we definitely draw on that. And that’s one of the reasons that we hire people that are success stories. To be a shining example, a beacon of hope.
Skip Ockoman:
I tell you, it’s amazing what the 12-step program has done for me. I remember about 12 years ago, I went into this center and I was going to meet this guy’s sponsor. But this guy was worried about this older guy. He says, “Can you help him and sponsor him?” And I said, “Well, let me meet him.” I went and shook the guy’s hand. He told me his name. I was kind of shocked a little bit. Sent me back. Years later went by, I found out a few things, and then found out this guy I met 12 years ago that I lost touch with ended up being my brother.
Aaron Reason:
Wow.
Skip Ockoman:
And I couldn’t wrap that around myself. And that’s when I found out a lot of other things. My mom, when she had Alzheimer’s, she told me she forgot who I was. Thought I was a counselor. And years ago told me she wasn’t a very good wife one day. And I knew what that meant. It’s just amazing. That was one of the things I had to work through. But I remember finding out. I went back to this guy’s house that was my brother, and I said, “Get your clothes on. We’re going to get help.” He went to the same halfway house I went to, went to the same treatment center I went to, and in December 18th, I got to give him his five-year token.
Michael Whitlock:
Oh great.
Aaron Reason:
That’s awesome, man.
Michael Whitlock:
That’s great.
Skip Ockoman:
He called on me when I was in treatment. So I got a big brother and I had four sisters I didn’t know about. Because I helped him through his sister’s death back 12 years ago. I didn’t know that was my sister that died.
Michael Whitlock:
Oh wow.
Skip Ockoman:
So there’s a lot of things that go into that story that when I try to think there’s no God, or nothing running the show, there’s a lot more to that story that makes sense to me. But watch who you date in recovery. That’s all I’ve got to say. Be careful.
Aaron Reason:
Right.
Michael Whitlock:
Well, we’re going to go ahead and wrap it up. We appreciate your time. I do want to give a mention; so you have a podcast. What’s the name of the podcast?
Skip Ockoman:
The podcast is called Burnout. You can go to burnoutpodcast.org, and we have new shows every Sunday. And also, you can go to the worldwidepeersupport.org, and there’s three Zoom support meetings from eight o’clock Eastern on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Sundays.
Michael Whitlock:
Okay. So we’re going to go ahead and put a link to those items in our show notes so that way, anyone that wants to reference those can see those things. And we just thank you for your time. You’re awesome. What you’re doing is awesome. Keep it up.
Aaron Reason:
Absolutely.
Michael Whitlock:
Keep fighting the good fight.
Skip Ockoman:
Thank you both. Appreciate you both.
Aaron Reason:
Thanks, Skip.
Michael Whitlock:
Thank you for listening and tuning into episode eight of A Reason to Live. We just want to thank our guest today, Skip Ockoman, who just has an amazing story. And we’re so glad he was in studio today, sharing, and all the work he does with Worldwide Peer Support. Remember, in the show notes I will have links to the information about his podcast and his organization. I want to thank our sponsors, as always, Bridges of Hope and Indiana Community Addiction Network, who allows us to continue to bring this message to the people. Thank you, and we’ll see you next time.
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